earlgraytay:

osberend:

discourse-wizard:

earlgraytay:

discourse-wizard:

earlgraytay:

silver-and-ivory:

discourse-wizard:

silver-and-ivory:

discourse-wizard:

Followed this trans positivity blog, saw this, unfollowed. Saying men suck isnt transphobia it’s expressing outrage against sexism, society loves men, society does Not say girls are better than boys holy shit what world do you live in and why do you hate women

“All men suck” can sometimes be a valid thing for someone to say when they are really mad!

But it’s also understandable that having it be a common statement and an agreed-upon-belief in one’s community might make a male-identifying person feel bad about themselves. In particular, I’ve heard of some cis women actively discouraging trans men to stay women or to disavow their male identity because the cis women believe that all men suck. This is a really bad thing to do and it arises from Othering men.

I don’t think it’s structural oppression of men by women. I do think that hating and Othering men can be harmful at a local level to individuals.

I also think that the patriarchal society we live in encourages gender essentialism and oppositional sexism: that is, it encourages women to hate men and men to hate women. It’s not particularly radical for a woman to say that she hated men. For this reason alone – for the sake of avoiding sexism and binaryism- I think that Othering men should be discouraged.

“Missndry cw” akdhs why are you So stupid

If saying “men suck” hurts a man’s little feelings then he needs to analyze his own sexism and the way he contributes sexism to society and subconscious bias against women and the idea that He’s One Of the Good Ones, Never A Misogynist

I warn for misandry cw for a variety of complicated reasons.

I don’t like your lack of care for men’s “little feelings”. Care to explain why men’s feelings aren’t important to you?

I think that it is important for men to recognize the advantages society gives them over women, and to recognize that anyone, including themselves, could be acting in sexist ways. Women, as well as men, contribute to sexist norms.

I absolutely agree that saying “men suck” is sometimes valid, and that if said in a moment of anger or frustration it is definitely excusable.

On a larger scale – perhaps on a community scale – when this is a commonly held and commonly repeated belief, it might end up making trans men afraid to come out or it might make a community more hostile to trans men. This is harmful to trans men because, yes, it hurts their little feelings.

Such a situation might be harmful to cis men. Belittling men’s concerns and looking down at men might make people unfairly dismiss or sneer at both cis and trans men. It might make people care less about legitimately sad or vulnerable men, which means that patriarchal standards for men are reinforced, not challenged. This is bad!

Sexism teaches women to hate men. This is bad because it’s a traditional part of sexism, and because it relies on ideas of maleness and femaleness are opposite and opposed to each other. This idea is transphobic and binaryist; it also contributes to sexist assumptions about what women can do or what men can do. I think that this is bad and that feminsts should try to avoid spreading these kinds of ideas.

As a trans man, I can confirm: I was pressured to identify as a different gender, because Masculinity Is Bad + Men Are Orcs rhetoric was rampant in the first ‘real’ trans community I was in.

Pressuring a trans man to not identify as a man is just classic transphobia not “transmisandry”. Misandry doesnt exist! “Masculinity is bad” also sounds like some butch hating lesbophobia nonsense, not “transmisandry”. Men Are Orcs, men have the power to abuse everyone else in society through misogny, there are actual societal consequaences of men having more power than everyone else. Trans men dont get an excuse to say “well i’m Trans man so it hurts my feelings to recognize male privilege and sexism” that’s bullshit and it’s clear that men want to ignore their privilege but they shouldnt fucking do that!

You’re pattern-matching. You are seeing things that I (and my friends) are saying and assuming we mean something completely different by them because you are used to assholes saying those things. In the process, you are completely ignoring what we are actually saying. This is obnoxious and you need to stop.

I am going to try to explain myself once again; please try to listen this time, instead of assuming that I am some kind of horrible MRA.

There are large chunks of society that hate trans men for being both trans and male. Some of them are cis guys who are horribly offended that someone without a dick would call himself a man. Some of them are, yes, butch lesbians who are horribly offended that someone without a dick would call himself a man. Trans men get gay-bashed and corrective raped, and from what I’ve heard from survivors of this crap, a lot of the time, it is specifically because they’re trans men

 The person who tried to ‘splain to me that Masculinity Is Bad and therefore I should be nonbinary was a butch trans woman. This wasn’t a butchphobia thing, this was specifically a “I dislike men and there is no reason why anyone should be one” thing. This was a “by identifying as a man, you are actively contributing to hurting people and upholding the patriarchy” thing.  

And it fucked me right the hell up. I am a man. This is something I cannot change, any more than I can change that my eyes are blue. I constantly feel guilty for being something that I am that I cannot change. This is not a good feeling for anyone to be having, and it’s an even worse feeling to be having without having done something to deserve it. 

(Until last year, I didn’t pass at all; I have huge tracts of land, and so people basically treated me like I was a woman until I started growing a beard. I do pass now, and I’d say at this point, I definitely have male privilege, but it took a while, a copious amount of body hair, and moving to a completely different state to get it.)

 Men are not orcs. Women are not orcs. Nonbinary people are not orcs. No one is a guaranteed-to-be-evil engine of destruction. 

The world does not have to be a place where men abuse everyone else.  

If you assume that the world is going to be a place where men always abuse everyone else, and thus try to make manhood verboten, it is going to be a self-fulfilling prophecy. 

I’m freely willing to admit that male privilege is a thing- hell, I know I have benefited from it- but it has nothing to do with gender identity, and it’s a thing we can fix.

I’m saying women complaining about there oppression is a sign that as men we need to listen and then use privilege to stop that oppression. It’s not wild.

Found the NPC!

Not because “all my political opponents are NPCs, kek,” or anything stupid like that. Not, even, because @discourse-wizard is a collectivist/SJW/left-identitarian/whatever you want to call it; there are plenty of collectivists who are able to meaningfully engage with what their opponents are actually saying. They’re still wrong, of course, but they’re not NPCs.

(And there are plenty of right-identitarians who are. And individualists, for that matter. The “NPC” terminology may be associated with a particular (vaguely defined, imprecise) “side,” but the phenomenon transcends political boundaries.)

No, what makes @discourse-wizard an NPC is their persistent inability or unwillingness to respond thought-out, nuanced, and above all decent analyses — by the screenshotted poster, @silver-and-ivory , @earlgraytay , and numerous other posters not present in this particular reblog chain — with anything but dogmatic slogans.

No one in this discussion is saying that women are not allowed to criticize sexism; we’re saying that “all men suck” and “men are orcs” are not valid or morally acceptable ways of expressing that criticism.

(Some of us (not including me) aren’t even saying that, categorically, just that there is a time and a place for such expressions, and that time is not “always,” nor is that place “everywhere.”)

Nor is anyone saying that women dominate “American society” as a whole; what we are saying is that individuals don’t live in “American society” as a whole, they live in (multiple, overlapping, often fuzzy-edged) social environments embedded within American society, that women dominate some such social environments, and that some — not all — of those woman-dominated environments are toxically misandrist.

Some of us (including me) are self-identified (egalitarian) anti-feminists, but most are not.

And if your response to all that nuance; recognition of some of your claims, while (forcefully) rejecting others; and differences of opinion among your critics (hell, @earlgraytay once asserted a right to punch me in the face if I ever exercised certain rights that I was then defending in his presence) … is to just keep repeating variations of “Women have a right to criticize sexism! Misandry don’t real! Disagreeing with me means you’re a misogynist!?”

Then yeah, you’re a fucking NPC.

Real life isn’t a fucking video game. There’s no such thing as a fucking NPC.

 Even people who have horrible, horrible opinions and are complete goatshit at expressing them are still people. They have inner lives and reasons for believing the things they believe, regardless of whether they look like they’re mindlessly following an ideological script.

(Also, for the record, I don’t remember the discussion in question, but I’m pretty sure the right you were defending was the right to advocate genocide. Which. Uh. That is not a right people ought to have.)

Can you not use my words as an excuse to dehumanize people, please?

Real life isn’t a fucking video game. There’s no such thing as a fucking NPC.

There are people who, when you talk to them, say the same thing again and again without ever showing any capacity for engaging in independent thought.

I’m not gonna police what word you use when referring to them, but they don’t suddenly start being capable of independent conversation just because you get mad at the words being used to describe them.

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